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#1 | |||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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This is the first draft of the chapter Of the Naugrim and the Edain
Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 11; page 201-243. Wherever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark. The markings are: NE-CD-xx for the section Concerning Dwarves. NE-CM-xx for the section Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Meeting of the Edain and the Eldar NE-KE-xx for the section Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information OF THE NAUGRIM AND THE EDAIN Quote:
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NE-CD-02: These paragraphs were used in Chapter 3. NE-CD-03: These were also used in Ch. 3 NE-CD-04: I hesitate to use dates, bc at this point I do not know which date is correct. If these dates are fine, they may be retained. NE-CD-05: This insert from the Annals contains much information about the relations of the Dwarves and the Noldor that we get nowhere else. NE-CM-01: Christopher Tolkien says that according to a "late note" this information was wrong, and he removed it in the Sil77, as I think should we. NE-KE-01: Same as the previous one. This Chapter is very straightforward, and I did not include additions from the Of Dwarves and Men essay in HoME 12 because I believe that is planned to be included in full in VOLUME II. An addition made by Christopher Tolkien in this chapter concerns Melkor's corruption of Men, and is sourced from the Grey Annals, but I have inserted it into the chapter Of Men, as it seemed to fit the subject matter there better. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 09-01-2017 at 02:24 PM. |
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#2 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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A few remarks in passing. I have not analysed the changes you made in detail. That must wait a bit.
1. I think by our editing the sub chapter Concerning the Dwarves is very thin and out of sequence in this position. I suppose we should shift it. probably to the end of cahpter 18 Of Beleriand and it's Realms, but I did not check where the events mention before the first meeting of Noldor and Dwarves are recorded. Nontheless the work should not be lost, Since we should use these sub-chapter somewhere. 2. What I planned to use in the second age stuff of Of Dwarves and Men from HoME 12 is only the Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men (without the first paragraph, that I planed to use in chapter 3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles, but then I have forgotten about that while editing). Other parts of the essay might be used here and in the chapter 15 Of Men. I remember that there were parts describing the journey of the Edain, which I suppose should be included here. As well there are the chapters about the Drûg that I think should be included here. Respectfully Findegil |
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#3 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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1. If you think this arrangement works better, then fine. However, as Tolkien out this in this chapter, I see no real need to move it out of sequence. But if you think it feels too jarring it cancertainly be appended to the previous chapter.
2. Personally, I hesitate to chop up a finished work that is useable as it is with only minor editing. Thus, I would include the Statute of Finwe and Miriel as a separate work instead of adding it into Of Finwe and Miriel. In this case I would also like to keep part 2 of Of Dwarves and Men complete as it stands already, as I see no reason not to include it in full later.v |
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#4 | ||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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If we are to add in the Dwarves and Men material (which I would argue we should not) I have composed a draft of how it might be done.
The first paragraph of Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain must be greatly altered, due to the fact that I missed the change in order of the arrival of the tribes in Beleriand, and also the note in Ros about their sojurn by the sea of Rhun. Quote:
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Last edited by ArcusCalion; 09-04-2017 at 05:18 PM. |
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#5 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Back to my own comment 1: I retake it. As it stands now it is fine to have the meeting of the people of Caranthir with the dwarves recorded here.
NE-CD-01: Agreed. {Thargelion}[Radhrost]: I think Radhrost is as well no longer valid. I would rather replace Thargelion by Talath Rhúnen as in our general changes. NE-CD-02 and NE-CD-03: Agreed. NE-CD-04: These dates are okay. And I think we should keep them. We just have to change Glomund to Glaurung. NE-CD-05: Agreed. {Maidors}[Maedhros]: Up to now the discussion was between Maedros or Maedron and the decision was made to take the more conservative Maedros. So please remove the ‘h’. NE-CM-01: Agreed. NE-KE-01: Agreed. NE-KE-00.2: Agreed and this change is necessary either way, taking material form Of Dwarves and Men or not. NE-KE-00.5: The general discussion of material from Of Dwarves and Men we should keep in one place, and that is for me the thread about Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles. If we agree there to take these material up, I agree to this use. NE-KE-01.2: Agreed. NE-KE-00.3: Agreed. But see NE-KE-00.5. NE-KE-03: Agreed. But see NE-KE-00.5. And I would include all the stuff about the Drûg, making your last section look like this: Quote:
NE-KE-04: This is the start of the Drúedain stuff. It might be used to head the general discussion if this material should be placed here. I did not mark the removal of editorial footnotes with editing markers. I hope that is okay. NE-KE-05: Here we have a special case. The material about the selfnaming should be included, but it can be discussed if a footnote is the right wax, when this arrangement was clearly editorial. NE-KE-06: Thedeleted stuff should be used in the Second Age story. NE-KE-07 and NE-KE-08: This alone would, in my opinion, be worth the inclusion of the Drûg in this chapter. NE-KE-09: JRR Tolkien marked these for deletion. But I hesitate about it. Even so I see Tolkiens reason, this would fit the Drûg very well and provides a look into the attitude to fungus of the other Edain and Eldar. NE-KE-10: Okay this is an editorial footnote, but it contains some Authorial statement. Therefore I put a marker on it. Nonetheless I think it must go. NE-KE-11: This § seems not useable as it is too much showing the essay stile. NE-KE-12: I put that marker to discuss the Hobbit stuff that follows in OF Dwarves and Men. For me that would belong into the Third Age narrative. But it can be discussed if (farther) parts of it should be included here. Respectfully Findegil |
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#6 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I will make a more detailed reply to your comments as soon as I am able, but at the moment I would like to say that I think now that as long as no pieces of the essay are "lost" but are simply used in different parts of the work, then I suppose it does make sense to chop it up. There was a footnote you deleted about Merry and Elfhelm, and these are the kinds of deletions that I was worried about when you wanted to chop up the essay, so if that is included here again, or reused somewhere else (although I do not see how or where) then I will be ok with the addition of these sections, as well as the sections in the Dwarves chapter.
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#7 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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What I deleted from the footnote was the editorial part added by Christopher Tolkien. It is true that in this part Elfhelm and Merry are reffered to, but these editorial refferences have to go anyhow. So I think it should be okay.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#8 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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As explained in Of the Sindar I would move §6 to that chapter and skip it here.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#9 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I think we should keep the note about the fungus because it is such an interesting source of information about so many things.
On a side note, some of the other notes about the druedain in the UT chapter, are they being saved for the second and third age stuff? |
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#10 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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What is from JRR Tolkien himself in these notes is from later paragraphs of the essay. And yes, what is useable should be used there.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#11 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Looking at the structure, I think we should consider making "Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Meeting of the Edain and the Eldar" the title of the chapter, and have "Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain" and "The Druedain" be subheadings. The name of the chapter "Of the {Naugrim and the} Edain" seems redundant.
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#12 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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One thing about NE-KE-00.2.
I don´t know if in this case is necessary the changing of the order. Possibly, as the same CT suggested, the professor forgot the extended account of the coming of Men into the west that wrote in 1958, and it seems logical due to the great number of people of marach. What do you think? Greetings |
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#13 | |||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Aug 2023
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 43
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Which brings me to the next point: Quote:
What's more, it seems to me that as it stands, we have two unique reasons for why the folk of Marach were delayed: first, as Beor explains it, because they are numerous and slow; and second, because they went south before coming back north. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but neither do they play very nice together. It seems better to me to go with one or the other, and much as I prefer the additional information from D&M, removing it does less harm to the text than trying to modify Beor's description of the the people of Marach's circumstances. Last edited by Elvellon; 07-14-2024 at 09:44 PM. |
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#14 | ||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Aug 2023
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Also, the inclusion of Ros Note 13 creates a similar problem:
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#15 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Uhu, a lot has accumalted here since I last was in this discussion!
About the chapter heading: I agree to ArcusCalion's proposal and will nam that change NE-CD-00.1 and NE-CD-06 NE-KE-00.2 & NE-KE-00.3: For me the change of order is necessary. And I agree that we must alter the statement that Marach led his people over the mountains. I would simply change "NE-KE-00.3{over}[around] the mountains" and later "{came down}[follwed] the Dwarfe-road" NE-CM-01.5: This Beor speaking about Marachs-Folk. I would alter this only slightly. Beor should not give the reason why they passed Marachs-folk, but I don't see an issue with him saying that they passed them: Quote:
ROS Note13: I agree that many years must be changed. I would simply skip "many". But with Beor's folk leaving the Sea of Rhûn before the Folk of Marach, I don't see why this should be changed. On the long, long way through the wide regions Rhavanion and Eriador many a change of possition could take place without any of two people recognising it. Respectfully Findegil |
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#16 | ||||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Aug 2023
Location: New Jersey
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Thanks for the reply, Findegil. It has been a while!
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This brings up another issue that just occured to me. We have Beor telling Felagund that the Haladin, who are "a people of a different speech", are "awaiting tidings before they venture further". If they are now "strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language" (as described in DM), then it raises the question: from whom and how would these tidings come? What's more, by including the DM material, they no longer seem to cross into Beleriand a result of tidings anyway. They just come over secretly in small parties the following year. In my opinion, the Haladin "awaiting tidings" from Beor's folk only makes sense when they were originally "a people that speak the same tongue". When Christopher swapped the two folks in the Silmarillion based on his father's "late and very express statements", he should have removed the part about them awaiting tidings. |
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#17 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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About the speach of Beor: I agree that to eliminat the referecen toBeor passing by Marach is safer. BUt I do not see why the poeple of Haleth shouldn't wait for a message from Beor. However, for Beor to know about them they had to be in contact. And as Beor did know they were of the same mind (renegades from the service of the Dark Lord), they must have had a way of communication. Thus way shouldn't they asked Beor to send a message after he found a way over the Mountains?
I don't think your change is to drastic, but I would propose to keep the text of DM a bit more together: Quote:
Findegil |
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#18 | ||
Animated Skeleton
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Beor only mentions tidings in the LQ version where the Haladin speak the same language, and are then the first to come over after Beor, and not in small secret groups. Quote:
That's why I go back to my earlier point, which is that I think Christopher made a mistake in The Silmarillion by including the text about awaiting tidings. Once CT swapped the the folks of Haleth and Marach, it no longer made sense for Beor to know they were awaiting tidings. Sure, it's not a deeply troubling plot hole in need of patching, but I do think there's a good case to be made here that in the process of combining two texts, that JRRT likely considered to be mutually exclusive to one another, CT and GK, and by extension this project, allowed some minor inconsistencies to slip through the cracks. |
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#19 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Okay, I see now your point. So you think that we should skip Bëor's mentioning of the Folk of Haleth waiting fo rtiddings east of Ered Luin or are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?
To skipping the waiting for meassage, I would be okay with that. But that he did know about the others is at least for the Folk of Marach asured in DW and I don't see why he should not have knowledge of the wandering Haladin as well. Respectfully Findegil |
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#20 | |
Animated Skeleton
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#21 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Even in Tolkien's latest musings I find it incredibly unlikely that not one person (in the case of the Houses of Beor and Marach) couldn't understand the speech of the Halethrim (or vice versa). The most isolated tribes on the planet still have some contact with other tribes - otherwise they'd collapse in an incestuous black hole. While the Houses of Beor and Marach might've been relatively isolated from the Halethrim (especially in language), I fail to see how they had no contact? Especially in Tolkien's later conception of Men awaking c. 3,000 years before the Exile of the Noldor. All of the above aside, the fact that the published Silmarillion (as well as the texts on which we're founding our project) has c. 300 years between the Awaking of Men and their arrival in Beleriand consisting of a ton of different cultures, phenotypes, etc. is one of the two things that had me seriously considering Tolkien's 'Round-world', post-1958 writings (it's why I left the project in the first place).
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#22 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I seems we are all in on line of sought: Bëor had knowledge about the Folk of Marach and the Folk of Haleth.
And for the Folk of Haleth waiting for tiddings from Bëor's folk, I would agree to Evellon's suggestion: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#23 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
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But the real reason was that 2015 was a terrible year for me (or rather its end). I'd just leave it at that.
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#24 | |
Animated Skeleton
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To Findegil's question "are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?" I was saying no, I am not suggesting such a drastic change.
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What we know from Of Dwarves and Men is that the three tribes "differed in speech", and the Folk of Haleth so much so that they "were strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language". In The Problem of Ros we find: "The language of the Folk of Haleth, so far as it was later known, appears to have been unrelated (unless in remote origin) and unintelligible to the other two peoples," to the extent that "This was the reason, in addition to their admiration of the Eldar, why the chieftains, elders, and wise men and women of the Atani learned Sindarin." Even though I think Sil77 made a small mistake by leaving in the line about "awaiting tidings", it's more easily hand-waved there because Christopher didn't include any of the above detail regarding languages. But this project does, so it stands out more to me as not fitting together. Of course there could have been some communication of some kind along the westward march, but as far as evidence for it in the latest texts, there's nothing about the folks of Haleth and Beor communicating. Unless I'm missing something. And when reading strictly the text of DM on its own, there's no reason to conclude that Haleth awaited tidings from (to paraphrase) "strangers who spoke an unintelligible language". They would have done their own reconnaissance, and it seems they did just that, by coming over secretly in small groups. Anyway, I've spent more time on this one small suggestion than I ever intended, no doubt making it seem like a bigger issue than I actually think it is! ![]() Last edited by Elvellon; 07-23-2024 at 12:16 PM. |
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#25 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I think the three of us are now all in agreement about the change.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#26 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I agree with Findegil - it's all okay.
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However, in the same note CT goes on to say: Quote:
Of course, all this is pure speculation and shouldn't be included in the work - but I always wondered why Hador was included with the likes of Hurin, Turin and Beren when Elrond was comparing Frodo to the heroic 'elf-friends of old': he is important obviously, but that important? Perhaps Tolkien also felt that way, and just like in the case Galadriel and Celeborn, he kept progressively elevating his status to match Elrond's description of him. Anyway, I'm rambling...
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#27 |
Animated Skeleton
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