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Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Frodo or the Ring?
Underhill hastily re-pitches his tent and hangs his shingle: 'The Debater is IN'
Actually, I guess this topic is pretty much spent. But you know me; I never know when to stop!<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> The idea presented is based upon an incomplete examination of a citation (where JRRT refutes the idea immediately afterward) in UT<hr></blockquote>Well, not completely incomplete. I just didn't find the refutation to be all that convincing. <blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was."
"I
think it was not so..."<hr></blockquote>I think it's interesting that JRRT rather coyly brings the idea up only to (sort of) shoot it down again. I think this falls under the "Methinks he doth protest too much" clause of the debate code, or maybe I'm thinking of "No doesn't always mean no." I wonder who the first person narrator is supposed to be in this fragment?
You're right, though, that other parts of the collected writings that make up this section of UT contradict the proposed theory. I don't have HoME X and have only read parts of it. My HoME kung-fu is very weak. I'll take your word for it, Saulotus, that there's more evidence to contradict Gandalf=Manwë there, too.
On the other hand, this sort of raises a "chicken or the egg" kind of question: if a conception is more or less true at the time of writing, but then later changes, which is the more accurate?
To Durelen: Cirdan upon his first meeting with Olórin "divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest." Saruman was apparently perceived by most (himself included) as the most powerful Istari at first, but other parts of UT describe in detail how he soon came to realize that Olórin had the greater power and wisdom, and came to hate and fear him (not to mention secretly emulate him) because of it.
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Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/18/01 1:35:43 am