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***Mister Underhill*** · 10-26-2003, 05:44 PM

Very interesting and articulate comments, Diamond. I have a few observations:

First, and with all the usual disclaimers that my Plato is rusty, I think you have misapprehended Plato’s – and possibly my – position. Plato indeed held that morality proceeded from “the gods”, which is the same as “from God” for our purposes here – that is, in Plato’s view, morality is not a human invention, nor is its ultimate aim individual happiness or the mere orderly conduct of society. If you believe that morality proceeds from ultimate truth, and that subversion of or opposition to that truth (immorality) leads to nothingness and evil, it follows that the more you are in accord with truth/God/the gods, the more contented, fulfilled, and at peace you will be, whereas the more you are in discord with that truth, the more you will be spiritually miserable. This, I think, is the thrust of Plato’s statement quoted from Esty’s book far above.

Second, if you believe in a benevolent God who created humans and who desires them to be in accord with His truth, then I think you must also admit that humans must come equipped with some means of discerning truth from falsehood, right from wrong. This must be even more true in Middle-earth, where there is no received law from Eru to guide human behavior. We call this conscience, of course, and in this sense, I think Tolkien would not have looked too sharply on the “listen to your heart” line (cf. Romans 2:14-15).

Sharkey, an outstanding text-based contribution, as always. I am all for exploring Tolkien’s Catholicism when it’s appropriate to do so, but I agree that there is little need to relate it directly here. In fact, I might add that since there are only the most obtuse references to Eru and no organized religion in sight in LotR, “conscious intent of serving Eru” might almost be read as “doing what one knows to be right”. Certainly we never see Frodo or Sam consciously puzzling over what Eru would have them do. They use their conscience as their guide. On the other hand, naturally, are characters such as Gandalf and Sauron, who have more insight into the concept of divine will and whether or not they are acting in accord with it.

10-26-2003, 05:44 PM	#51
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	Very interesting and articulate comments, Diamond. I have a few observations: First, and with all the usual disclaimers that my Plato is rusty, I think you have misapprehended Plato’s – and possibly my – position. Plato indeed held that morality proceeded from “the gods”, which is the same as “from God” for our purposes here – that is, in Plato’s view, morality is not a human invention, nor is its ultimate aim individual happiness or the mere orderly conduct of society. If you believe that morality proceeds from ultimate truth, and that subversion of or opposition to that truth (immorality) leads to nothingness and evil, it follows that the more you are in accord with truth/God/the gods, the more contented, fulfilled, and at peace you will be, whereas the more you are in discord with that truth, the more you will be spiritually miserable. This, I think, is the thrust of Plato’s statement quoted from Esty’s book far above. Second, if you believe in a benevolent God who created humans and who desires them to be in accord with His truth, then I think you must also admit that humans must come equipped with some means of discerning truth from falsehood, right from wrong. This must be even more true in Middle-earth, where there is no received law from Eru to guide human behavior. We call this conscience, of course, and in this sense, I think Tolkien would not have looked too sharply on the “listen to your heart” line (cf. Romans 2:14-15). Sharkey, an outstanding text-based contribution, as always. I am all for exploring Tolkien’s Catholicism when it’s appropriate to do so, but I agree that there is little need to relate it directly here. In fact, I might add that since there are only the most obtuse references to Eru and no organized religion in sight in LotR, “conscious intent of serving Eru” might almost be read as “doing what one knows to be right”. Certainly we never see Frodo or Sam consciously puzzling over what Eru would have them do. They use their conscience as their guide. On the other hand, naturally, are characters such as Gandalf and Sauron, who have more insight into the concept of divine will and whether or not they are acting in accord with it.