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Originally Posted by Huinesoron
I think the source is 1.VI(B), which states "It seems clear that the rescue of the Quendi must be secret (as far as possible) and before the assault upon Utumno - otherwise this very peril ["involv[ing] the Children in misery or destruction"] would have occurred. The Great March must occur behind a screen of investment, and before any violent assault had begun."
Which... might well mean that the March was completed before Utumno was attacked. Except this is the same source as I was using for the Arising of Men! In the span of six paragraphs, Tolkien establishes:
- The Captivity began after the March completed.
- Men awoke during the Captivity.
- Men awoke 1440 SY after the Finding
Which... could work. If we say the March was completed when the Teleri sailed, that's about 1100 SY after the Finding. Men would then awaken 300 years later, around the time Alqualonde was built. They then have, oh, call it 1500 years before they arrive in Beleriand.
But, that directly contradicts the last information on the Dwarves (that they awoke after Men and entered Beleriand before the Eldar. Is there a solution that satisfies both?
Maybe. VI(B) uses the term "Arising and Fall of Men", which doesn't quite say that the Arising is the same as the Awakening. VI(A), a slightly earlier text, begins with: "Men must 'awake' before the Captivity of Melkor. [Footnote:] But see later. men were probably corrupted by Sauron after the Captivity (100 VYs later)." So we could have a situation where Men awaken during the March, but are only discovered after it.
But... that's absolutely not what VI(A) was angling for (it specifically has Melkor discovering Men before the Finding), so maybe I was best to leave it out. ^_^
Good question. It looks like I've treated "the Noldor arrive in Middle-earth" and "FA 1" as synonyms. I don't think I have a source for that; I certainly didn't write one down.
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I think that quote from VI.(B) is pretty vague.
"The Great March must occur behind a screen of investment, and before any violent assault had begun." - the way I see it, this could mean two things:
1) The assault on Utumno doesn't start
until the March is completed (i.e. all three groups arriving in Valinor)
2) The assault doesn't begin until the March is
started, and the Eldar are sufficiently far away to be relatively safe (I suppose Avari are screwed though either way...but I digress...)
I much prefer interpretation no. 2, and not just because it gives me less of a headache - I prefer it mainly because I just can't see the Valar hanging around for hundreds of years waiting and waiting, especially since the assault of Angband was already under way when the Eldar started the March, and that would undoubtedly be of terrible proportions - but still evidently not terrible enough to not do it while the Eldar were still in Middle-earth.
In regards to VI.(A) - what about that footnote about Sauron corrupting Men after the Captivity of Melkor?
Anyway, in regards to the 'Beleriand Years' - I think that Tolkien still treated the arrival of Fingolfin as 'YS 1'/'FA 1'/'Bel. 1' regardless of 'flat-world'/'round-world' frameworks.
By the way, what source did you use for the 20 solar years figure for the exile of the Noldor? And if it's unsourced and we're making stuff up, I'd lean more toward the figure in the
Difficulties in Chronology (p. 71):
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Therefore the Crossing of the Ice should be in FA 1496.
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This was a change from YT 1500, given that he thought 720 years is a bit too much - so it's "only" one VY now: of course the VY here is 144 solar years, but, like I said - if it's a matter of making up a figure, you can just take this up but convert it into the old c. 10 years duration of VY...or you can just take Tolkien on his word and make it 144 years! (Please don't...what was he thinking!!??)
And as if that wasn't bad enough, take a look at this from the same text as the above (pp. 72-3):
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A better solution is 3) The Rate of Growth of those born in Beleriand was 10 = 1. But of those born in Aman it was 50 = 1 in Beleriand. But it began to increase as soon as they left Valinor, say after the Doom of Mandos. The Valian Year spent in reaching Beleriand via the ice aged all the Exiles about 2 years (it took 144 Sun-years) = 72 (but Fëanor reached Beleriand in one half the time = Bel. 50 and so only aged 1 year).
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So not only did Fingolfin and co. take 144 solar years (!) to reach Beleriand, but, get this, Feanor (who was in something of a hurry!) took 72 years (!!) by SHIP (!!!) to reach Losgar...
Anyway, I'm only pointing out this quote because I had to get it off my chest. If you ever decide to give a date for Feanor's landing in Middle-earth, I'd just make something up and give it, say, a (normal) year after the destruction of the Trees (and even that is still too much IMO).