[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He may have been working in secret, but even in this version he is allowed entry into Eregion. If he is being scorned by Galadriel it means he has been admitted into the land. In Lindon in virtually every account he was forbidden from entering.

Yes but even Christopher Tolkien raises this question, noting that Tolkien himself doesn't really explain it. You might, I might, even Tolkien might, but he doesn't.

If Galadriel was not going to stay in Lindon and accept the direct Overlordship of Gil-galad would she be willing to do the same in Eregion?

As far as I recall there is no motive of fleeing Gil-galad's lordship explaining why Galadriel passed to Eregion. Celeborn arguably rules Harlindon incidentally, even if under Gil-galad as High King (and Gil-galad is still High King if they had founded Eregion in any case)...

... the motive for the Noldorin move to Eregion is mithril (Appendix B), or for Galadriel and Celeborn (CG&C), they go to the country about Nenuial first, then Galadriel moves further East, becoming aware of an evil controlling purpose in the world, seemingly proceeding further to the East. And possibly choosing Eregion also because of the Dwarves of Moria.

She often spoke of her desire to rule her own land. It seems odd that she would go the entire Second Age, without trying to rule at least one place.

Tolkien's early idea seems to be that Galadriel left Beleriand in the First Age, and (I assume) she thus ruled Lothlorien with Celeborn even before the Second Age began. Tolkien change Celeborn into a Sindarin Elf however, and (first edition) has him migrate to 'south Greenwood' in the Second Age; so again I assume that Galadriel went with him and essentially ruled in 'Lindorinand' with her husband...

... until The Road Goes Ever On is published, and the reader learns that they both went to Eregion, which also seems to take no notice of the never revised statement in The Lord of the Rings itself (Galadriel speaking): '... for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains...' and so on.

So basically Tolkien appears to make Galadriel 'wait' longer and longer until she takes up rule in Lorien, ultimately awaiting almost two thousand years into the Third Age.

Is there really a reasonable argument for Galadriel not ruling her own realm especially when this is something she had always wished? The Second Age was her chance to do this. I just cannot see Galadriel willingly entering Eregion to be under the Lordship of Celebrimbor.

Well a possible argument could be that Celebrimbor and the Smiths, attracted by Mithril -- which is the certain idea we have in publication from the author actually -- simply founded the realm before Galadriel got there, so she had no choice.


But I look at the texts here. In CG&C Galadriel is in Lothlorien before Sauron comes with war, due to being ousted from rule by the Mirdain (noting that Celebrimbor himself still comes to her for advice after this, incidentally), and is thus in Lothlorien after Eregion is devastated. Yet in the two later accounts noted in Unfinished Tales, what do we have?

Celeborn goes to Lorien after the destruction of Eregion (which itself is a change from CG&C), and later rejoins Galadriel in Lindon. Or another idea. Christopher Tolkien explains:

'The implication of the extract just given is that after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration to Lorien, while Galadriel joined Gil-galad in Lindon; but elsewhere, in writing contemporary with this, it is said explicitly that they both at that time 'passed through Moria with a considrable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien'

Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tales

It seems that Galadriel is no longer already in Lorien but passes there, unlike in CG&C where she was already in Lorien much earlier and didn't leave until after Sauron was defeated and so on -- again, with the reason for her being there being that she had been ousted from power -- and that was because she had been in power in Eregion in the first place. I note again the following from Words, Phrases And Passages:

'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

Amroth as Galadriel's son changed. Celeborn's refusal to pass through Moria is gone. Gone (in my opinion) also is the agelong sojourn in Belfalas ('To Lorien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age...'), as Celeborn had never been to Lorien in CG&C, and Celeborn did not go there until far into the Third Age (CG&C). Celebrimbor as a Smith of Gondolin was changed.

What else? Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is characterized as a 'short and hasty outline, very roughly composed', and although we can't date it exactly is could be earlier than the three quotes from WPP above, but is certainly earlier than the notes I cited that CJRT reveals in Unfinished Tales.

Galin wrote [about the added description in Appendix B]: It seems a rather notable detail to skip that Galadriel and Celeborn were founders and rulers of Eregion! but if that version raised too many questions and had been abandoned...

Cellurdur responded: Odd, but it still leaves the possibility open.

Yes but the only reason to inject Galadriel and Celeborn as founders of Eregion is because we now have access to a very rough outline which contains a number of abandoned concepts. And if this is odd, we can also add RGEO:

'She passed over the mountains of Eredluin with her husband (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion. But it was impossible for one of the High Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss. She was now burdened with this desire. In the event, after the fall of Sauron, in reward for all that she had done to oppose him, but above all for her rejection of the Ring when it came within her power, the ban was lifted, and she returned over Sea, as it told at the end of The Lord of the Rings.'

And where it is also told (in The Lord of the Rings that is) that Celeborn did not sail with Galadriel (not at this time at least), despite what he says to Aragorn, and despite what Tolkien says here about the Sea Longing and the land of their 'former bliss' ... so not only is Celeborn Sindarin here, but if Celeborn is from Aman why isn't he returning with Galadriel, given this much about the Sea Longing?

And is Galadriel being rewarded (in part) for allowing Sauron into Eregion where the son of her nephew did not? Maybe...

... but back to Eregion, to my mind the alteration of one word could have shown Tolkien's intent (if so) here: that is, Galadriel and Celeborn 'went' to Eregion? Or 'founded' Eregion.

And since I have RGEO out:

'She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains...'

Which is why the very late, adumbrated tale of an 'unstained' Galadriel is out for me.