[Saulotus]

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Re: Creating a new Silmarillion -- some ideas...

Posted by Michael Martinez
&gt;&gt;You cannot mix science and Tolkien's mythology together successfully. Tolkien devised the mythology originally to be a mythology. Mythologies are not based on science.&lt;&lt;

As an answer to this:

Originally posted to Dunedains camp discussion group.

Posted by Earendur
Is the aproxcimate age of Arda mention anywhere?

Answered by Eruve
Not really. You can calculate the length of the first three ages, more or less, since
you have to approximate the length of the First Age (500+ years). But before the
First Age even began (at the first rising of the moon, or was it the sun, I don't
remember now, but with a week's difference between the two, that doesn't
change much) there were thousands and thousands of years that are difficlut to
calculate, since Tolkien seems to have changed his mind on this matter, and it isn't
clear what conclusion he drew.

Answered by Grand Admiral Reese
I've seen guesstimates from between 11,000 years to several hundred thousand
years.

Answered by Eruve
The confusion comes in because before the ages of the Sun, time was measured in
Valian years. Morgoth's Ring tell us 5000 Valian Years passed before time began to
be measured in solar years. Now a Valian year is longer than a solar year, but how
much longer? At first we are told it was 9.582 times longer. Later on Tolkien seems
to have changed this to 144 times longer. It's not entirely clear which figure is
right. So this gives us either 47 910 years or 720 000 years before First Age began
(take your pick).

Answered by Aragorn II Elessar
Hmm.. Is not 47 000 year a verry short time to create Arda?
Would it not be more likely that they would have used more time?

Answered by Eruve
I think Arda was already created (at least partly) before the Valian years start.
The entry under the first year of the Annals of Aman states: &quot;After ages of labour
beyond knowledge or reckoning in the great halls of Ea the Valar descended into
Arda in the beginning of its being, and they began there their labour fore-ordained
for the shaping of its lands and its waters, even form the foundations to the
highest towers of the Air.&quot; It seems there was something already there, a sort of
raw material, that the Valar only had to shape and refine. Arda is, after all, a part
of Ea, so there was already a beginning that occurred in the previous ages during
the making of Ea.

As a matter of interest, here are some other dates: in VY 1500 Tulkas descends
into Arda.
VY 1900 the two lamps are set up and the Valar continue their labours.
VY 3400 The Feast of the Spring of Arda on Almaren. Melkor begins to delve
Utumno.
VY 3450 Melkor makes war on the Valar and overturns the lamps.
VY 3500 Valinor is completed. Yavanna sings up the Two Trees. From this point,
the count of years begins anew as the Years of the Trees. These last for 1500
years and are of the same length as the Valian Years.

Answered by Saulotus
Yuppers. Valian years weren't counted until the Valar like actually descended into
Arda. before that was the shaping, which as you quote took like a very long time.

This also has the novelty of dinosaurs havin the time to exist, since there are
possibilities there considerin the steed of the nazgul and the dragons and stuff, but
that's another discussion.

ONE of the reasons that Tolkien gives for the Valar allowing the elves to come to
Aman is that the Valian year is the same length as an elven one, and would not
interfere with their life-cycle, and why men were not allowed entry to Aman since
it would affect theirs. We know from LOTR that an Elven year is 144 years (based
upon the legend of the awakening of 144 elves). This is like explicit in Tolkien's
later work. The 9+ years was like way earlier.

So; the figure of 720,000 years prior to the first age when the Valar came to Arda
is more or less a bulls-eye. I like still have problems with the amount of time after
the destruction of the trees for Fingolfin to reach Beleriand, since the dates are
given in annal form. I've seen some people stating it was days, not years. But this
day thing is like so incorrect it ain't even funny (easily somethin like 1,000+ miles in
5 days on foot? yaright.). 720 years is way too long, and even if ya absolutely
insist on keepin the 9+ year rate despite evidence to the contrary, it's still like 45+
years, and like still too long.

Answered by Eruve
I have trouble with that bit, too. OTOH there may have been an ultimate
reconciliation somewhere, had Tolkien ever gotten around to revising everything.
He stated himself (in Morgoth's Ring) the the Sun and Moon bit was nonsense and
must be considered a myth within the legendarium, that the sun and moon as we
know them within our Solar System must have always existed and that, since the
Valar had a part in the making of it all they would have known this and have
taught it to the Elves who came to Aman. So maybe he would have eventually
worked out that the Valian Years (144 solar years) would only hold within the
domain of the Valar (under the Dome of Varda, say), and that once Feanor et al
took the oath, and the Doom of the Noldor was pronounced, and the Noldor left,
the were removed from the Valar's domain and in a way released into the world and
from that point the Noldor were living solar years. So it then took Fingolfin 4 years
to wander and eventually cross the Helcaraxe. I suppose that's one way to
reconcile it all. There could certainly be others. This is of, course, pure speculation
on my part.

Answered by Saulotus
Ok dude, I like see what ya are sayin here, but I think I see a few problems with it.

As far as I can tell, and have explained (somewhere?), the created sun and moon
from the trees ain't myth. The whole story of this creation is perfectly snuggled up
in bed holdin a teddy with the sun and moon created at the beginning, and like
really kinda CAN'T be otherwise. if ya want the full details, I'm thinkin I put it on
Barrow downs.

Don't know 'bout the 144 year thing only in Valinor dude. LOTR text kinda maintains
that elven years were 144. I think you're sayin that after they left Valinor they
were like returned to mortal years or sumpin. I think you may have sumpin there,
but elven years are still 144 years long.

I think the 4 year thing is just about right dude, and is like way better than 45+
and 720. This actually holds hands mostly with the explanation I referred to above
there I think. But I'll reduce it fer ya; there were 2 suns and 2 moons. The sun and
moon created from the trees were for Valinor only. There like already WAS a sun
and moon for middle-earth. Glad ya mentioned the Dome tho. Most people I think
feel that this is some type of structure, it ain't. The only problem area I've come
across is the flowers springin at Fingolfin's feet, but the closest I can come
textwise there is the Clouds of Melkor bein blown away (burned away?) and the
Sleep of Yavanna bein lifted with the light of the 'uncorrupted' sun of the trees
which returned to Valinor. IIRC there was sumpin about the sun crossin the sky
several times. But that seems to like hold with that also if it's destroyin clouds.
Then the sun goes bye-bye back to Valinor and the old 'corrupted' sun (as we
know it) is back. One of my points was that when Valinor goes bye-bye, where
does it get it's light? Where did it get it with the Dome in place before it went
bye-bye? Valinor is like removed from the physical world. ok, so where? it's still
shining like white light whenever anyone looks to the west who can see it. Where
the light comin from? Was the Treeish sun and moon myth? Nope, not as far as I
can tell.

Answered by Eruve
FYI, I'm a dudette .

I haven't read all of HOME so I know I'm missing some texts here and there. I was
basing my little theory solely on Morgoth's Ring, but what you say about there
being two suns and moons works for me... I was saying it was a myth because
there's a text in MR where JRRT is kind of thinking on paper and calls the whole sun
and moon story nonsense and then tries to work it in by saying it's a Numenorean
myth.

I understand about the Elven yen always being 144 solar years. I guess I wasn't
clear. I didn't mean the Elves themselves aged on a faster time scale, just the
events after the Doom of the Noldor took place during 4 solar years, instead of 4
Valian Years.

Answered by Saulotus
Oh. Ok, sorry.

Yeah; it does make a little more sense don't it? Havin two suns and moons. Opinion
of course.

Ok; NOW I see. Yeah, that makes sense. 4 'solar' years is better. I suppose the
annals could be written usin Valian tree time (144 years) and when it went
bye-bye, all the elves had to judge time with was the regular sun. I can buy into
that as sumpin that makes total sense.

I suppose the Numenorean myth thing could still be taken at face value also.
Possibly a forgettin of the fact that there were 2 suns and moons, and attributin
everything to the one they did know of. The last time a Numenorean talked with an
elf was like 350 years before the downfall, and that was in secret. The last true
open contact was like 600 years before the downfall, so I suppose things could get
a little confused fer them. I mean it's not like the old tales were openly taught or
learned. Could be that as far as they knew the sun and moon they knew WAS
created from the trees; but maybe that's just a misunderstandin from the tales of
the elves. it's not like they could SEE another sun and moon (if they were in
Valinor) so that would be the natural assumption I suppose.

Answered by Eruve
I think the tales would have been passed along by word of mouth and so things
could get easily confused. And eventually a small detail like the sun and moon in
Valinor wasn't the same sun and moon as the rest of the world could drop out of
the tellin, especially if it made things confusing. And no Numenorean had ever been
to Valinor to see things for himself...

Answered by Saulotus
This is like beginnin to sound like that mythology within a mythology thing Tolkien was lookin for ain't it?
Eruve; can you see where we like actually changed anything?
Did it make sense? REALLY make sense?

In answer to Mithadan and your ten points;
Those points are already answered by Tolkien.

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