Butturbur's Worst Customers
 

Some points raised in this thread recently regarding whether the wights could leave the Barrow-downs got me wondering about something.
Aragron makes this statement to the Council of Elrond, mainly for Boromir's edification:

The only creatures of evil intent that near to Bree would seem to be the wights. I could imagine them indeed 'freezing Butturbur's heart', or driving everyone from Bree. But the wights don't seem to have the inclination, or the capability, to do so. Aragorn's words suggest that the instant the Dúnedain let their guard down, these enemies would wreak havoc in Eriador. And when the Dúnedain left to fight in the War of the Ring, enemies indeed came to Bree. But those were folk out of Dunland and Isengard, hardly 'a day's march' from Bree. The wights apparently remained right where they were, though the Dúnedain were gone.
Any thoughts on who the Dúnedain were primarily fighting off from Bree and the Shire in the Third Age?

Let's not forget about your average, random encounter lowlifes--common brigands and the lot. Sure, they may not lay siege to Bree itself, but its crime rate would certainly go up, and with the Road more dangerous that would also limit trade. Bree itself is pretty isolated, so the loss of that trade could be devastating.

I was always under the impression that Arnor itself was a pretty lawless place at this point and it was up to the Dunedain to keep the scum at bay--from the servants of Sauron to petty thugs.

I don't think of those Bree ruffians as characters who would "freeze your heart". Somehow I mostly thought of much more evil and dangerous being from the north, for example up near Deadman's Dike. There is a reference in the Tale of Years about the time when wolves threatened the Shire and Eriador, and it is said that they are still a threat today. Others could be Orcs perhaps from the north, or Trolls. Anyway, this sort of relates to my earlier question of why so much of Eriador is deserted. The suggestion is that much of it is haunted...

It seems clear there were various mailicious things roaming around the North; at least Trolls, maybe as far west as Weathertop, possibly some wolves, etc. But Aragorn's statement seems to indicate an organised settlement of evil beings of some sort, when he talks about then being 'a day's march' from Bree.

Yes, and I agree that I can find no other specific reference to what these enemies would be... To the south, there are ruffians to be sure, but as stated, more than a day's march. To the east it seems to be largely deserted, unless you approach the Troll Fells, many day's march. To the west are the Elves. So this really only leaves the North, although there are more references to the Rangers guarding the southern side than to the north, where they only go occasionally...

That's an interesting topic. Anyway, as to what's been said, I think you can rule the North out: Deadman's Dike had bad reputation only because of the Breelanders' superstition. Gandalf told Butterbur that Rangers are regularly visiting the place, and he said it in a way that did imply rather a pilgrimage to a place bringing sweet memories of forgotten realm than to some haunted dungeon.

The words about "freezing one's heart", to me, imply something more than just "regular" brigands or wild animals (wolves etc.), but it could be Trolls or something like that, although I really doubt that they will be one day's march from Bree.

Actually, there is this thing during Barliman's discussion with Gandalf when the Hobbits are returning home. Barliman says:

So basically, I think this quite corresponds with the above. Are the "dreadful things" the thing that Gandalf mentioned earlier at the Council? Then they are not robbers nor wolves - Barliman mentions those two separately from the "dark shapes". So is that what we are looking for? Somehow, it does not seem fit to me that the Barrow-Wights would awaken and roam free in the woods - they always seemed to me more like bound to one place. And somehow I do not believe that just the Rangers would stop them. But would they? Who knows.

I don't think you're supposed to fully know what the threats to Bree were. As JRRT says in one of his Letters (something like), it's the hint of barely glimpsed vistas that give verisimilitude to a tale and a created world. Even PJ's movie uses this concept to good effect in the beginning of FOTR when Bilbo says:

and then immediately moving on to discuss prosaic hobbit life.

Not unlike some other Tolkien throwaway comments, like the one about hobbits wandering off to have adventures and (I think) some never returning.

And is it that hard to freeze Butterbur's heart? Regular brigands might do so, but I'm thinking more of something like the giant insects, etc. that unsettled Thorin and Co. in Mirkwood.

I myself did not necessarily interpret Gandalf's report of the Rangers visiting Deadmen's Dike as anything having to do with sweet memories. To me it seemed to be another part of their regular tour for the purposes of protecting Eriador. Admittedly probably not as sinister as Barliman's idea of it, which is presumably an old wife's tale, but perhaps as dangerous as other regions.

In the end, you have to go with the reports of where the Rangers were found. Somewhere close to Rivendell, one assumes, since Halbarad got the message that Aragorn needed help. Their presence close to Weathertop is also noted, since they left the firewood that the Aragorn and the hobbits found. And down near Tharbad, since they were driven off by the Nazgul. Bombadil certainly knows about them, since he talks of the
Given their mission, one assumes that where they are found is somewhere close to where the evil things, whatever they are, would invade...

I assume the Rangers were simply wandering all over the former Arnor, and I see no reason to change this idea. Anyway, the thing about Fornost seems to me that it is something different. I mean: there is nobody to protect there, but it's the place of "pilgrimage" to remember the forgotten times when Arnor was still a powerful kingdom. Just like Weathertop. The Rangers also go there, as Aragorn says, and he has this half-sighing tone of "it used to be a mighty tower, now it's a pile of rock".

And as for Fornost, the way Gandalf says it:

It always seemed to me that the meaning is, in other words: "You are a superstitious simpleton, Butterbur, you know nothing about the noble history, there is nothing scary about Fornost, it is a "holy place" of the Dúnedain, because their King had once dwelt there, and only because it's been destroyed by the Witch-King and has been deserted for a long time, it has the reputation of an "old haunted house" in your eyes."

Or one could interpret this slightly differently, given when Gandalf makes his statements. Perhaps this is Gandalf's way of saying that the King who has returned aims to clean things up, pointing also to the distant past when the Dunedain did live up there:
which is followed by Butterbur's claim that the area is Deadmen's Dike and that it is haunted. Gandalf follows this with:
which could be interpreted as meaning that Gandalf expects things to change for the better, not necessarily that there is no threat at all to the north. Slightly earlier, Butterbur says
More superstition from Butterbur?? Maybe, but one could argue that the departure of the Rangers has allowed the robbers who came up the Greenway to flourish,
Whether the reference to "dark shapes in the woods" is real, or just the imaginings of Butterbur, I don't know. And whether the Rangers are only going to Deadmen's Dike for the purposes of a pilgrimage, it is hard to say, but I don't see the threat to Bree and the Shire has strictly coming from one direction.

Great thread title, Inziladun! And very interesting conjectures here from everyone.

To be honest, I have a bit of a different idea about Aragorn's comments. I've never thought of them as anything but a reference to the Black Riders. I could be wrong, but it strikes me that they are the closest foes Aragorn has most recently faced and might possibly be upper-most in his mind.

After all, at the Prancing Pony he said to Frodo:

Then later as Butterbur produces Gandalf's letter for Frodo, he says,

Aragorn's words are general enough at the Council of Elrond, yet his reference to "the one fat man" suggests the Innkeeper of the Prancing Pony, who has shown us (in passages I haven't quoted) how little he understands or appreciates Strider. I could be wrong, of course, but it seems to me that no fell creature of the Barrow Downs nor troll of the wilds could strike the uncanny fear into the hearts of men (and hobbits) that the Black Riders do; nor could they be the foes which freeze Butterbur 's heart.

One argument against this last interpretation is that in fact the Rangers were unable to keep the Black Riders from overrunning Bree. The Witch King swept the Rangers away at Tharbad, and then a few days later (after invading the Shire), swept through Bree...

I of course also don't think that a troll could strike the fear into the hearts of men - though I think the BWs could pretty well, what makes you think they would not? People are scared only by tales about the hills they live in, and all this cold grasping hearts of the hobbits... well, surely you can read for yourself and see what impression it makes.
Anyway, I certainly don't think that Aragorn would be speaking about Black Riders on the Council, because if he says:
That certainly does not refer to the Black Riders. The "foes" are there obviously permanently (see the words used: "lives" and "ceaselessly", that would not be used for riders who have been around there for a few days). It actually, after seeing this, really makes me think more and more of the Barrow-Wights. Although like I said before, it just somehow does not go well with the impression I have of them being the "homely folk" staying in their tombs and haunting passing visitors. Also I already expressed my doubts when it comes to the power of the Rangers to stop them from invading civilised lands, if they chose to.

A slight note (I don't want to be picky, but since you said it already for the second time ;) ): it was at Sarn Ford, not at Tharbad. I know that in the rather unexplored wilderness south of Bree one really hardly cares, but these two places are some three days ride from each other and are something completely different. (Sarn Ford were the southern borders of the Shire, that was why the Rangers were there.)

My sentence was a comparison, that the uncanny fear of the Black Riders was greater than any fear of the Barrow Wights (see the bolding I've added here); I didn't say that the wights could not inspire fear. It's a matter of degree. :)

The verb "lives" refers to "one fat man who lives", not to the foes. I think--and of course anyone is free to disagree--that Aragorn is here describing his life to Boromir and staking his claim as heir to Isildur. He speaks generally of his life, although the recent events at the Prancing Pony--where Butterbur clearly was greatly disturbed by news of the Riders--have influenced his thoughts. He is pointing out that he has had a harder time of it than Boromir in Gondor, receiving little thanks--and we've just seen how poorly Butterbur thinks of Strider.

I too have a similar sense that the wights don't travel far beyond their barrows. But it's Tom who can control the wights, not Aragorn.

Mewlips??

Right about Sarn Ford--I have been reading too much in the Unfinished Tales recently, where Tharbad is discussed quite a bit.

Otherwise, one interpretation is that the foes that would freeze one's heart, or overrun the town, are two separate groups. Perhaps the Wights will freeze one's heart, but being immobile, are not really a threat to Bree. One day's ride here makes sense for the Barrow Downs. And those who would overrun Bree are the ruffians coming up from the south...

But I still wonder about those dark figures in the woods that Butterbur mentions...

Just because Barrow-Wights don't move around much, doesn't mean that they aren't immobile. Don't you remember in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil where there is a Barrow-Wight in his wardrobe? It means that they can, and do sometimes move around elsewhere. Which makes them a likely candidate for those dark shapes in the forest that Butterbur spoke of. Not saying that they are in fact what those shapes were.

As was stated before, there are many different creatures in ME, it could have been anyone of them. Aren't there some inhabitants of the Ice Bay of Forochel, or however it's called? They might be coming down to Bree. Also, I seem to recall there being spirits living all over Eriador. Weren't there many spirits sorts living there because of the Witch King?

Rumil, a splendid contribution! Much appreciated. :D

Oh surely greater, but still, even a BW could "freeze" your heart if it came to that, I am sure.

Yes, I know, but he "lives" there apparently all his life, and thus, also the enemies are there all the time when he lives (or at least for some time). Certainly Aragorn was not speaking of a few random wraiths or something that was there just for a week and then went away, it would be phrased a lot differently.

Well, from what is said about them I got the impression that they live closer to the Sea ;)

Well, the folk who lives in Forochel are the Lossoth, who are again humans. Ruffians, nomads (anyway, the Lossoth don't make impression that they would neither go that far South - what for? - nor that they would be particularly evil, quite the opposite, they seem to be somewhat primitive, but relatively nice folk, something like Drúedain) - all that certainly would not go well in my imagination with the "dark shapes" or the "heart-freezing foes".

As for the spirits, I also don't think there were that plenty of them. The concentration of them nearest to Bree were the Barrow-Downs, we don't know about anything else, though I could imagine some others roaming Angmar or Rhudaur, but that still does not point to the thing Aragorn mentioned. We don't know anything about another "permanent settlement of wraiths" close to Bree.

Dark figures in the woods
 

This just reminded me of something:
The Prof never bothered to explain what business an Ent may have had being abroad on the borders of the Shire, but judging from the description - 'as big as an elm tree, and walking seven years to a stride' - it would seem what Sam's cousin Hal saw was exactly that. But then again, an Ent - or maybe a Huorn? A wandering grove of Huorns in bad mood would surely be enough to freeze poor Barliman's heart!
Point being, if Ents and/or Huorns were roaming around in northern Eriador, who knows what else? It doesn't have to be Barrow-wights or Trolls or anything else we know about - maybe rather something like the Mewlips (good point, Rumil!), if we take them as a placeholder for any kind of creature that doesn't come into the narrative or the larger Legendarium, but may have been there nevertheless. Think of it, we only meet such apparent solitaires as Shelob or the Watcher in the Water because the path of Frodo's quest happened to cross their habitats, but there may have been many more both like and unlike them. So in short, I agree with what Tuor said above, that this is probably rather a case of 'unexplained vistas' extending beyond the frame of the canvas, or maybe rather a vague glimpse of things peeping over the frame of the canvas from outside.

I think that they would be the ones that were frozen in that case. ;)

Maybe not the Men of Forochel but some of the beasts of Forochel, if the wandered in might cause chills (especially under wicked influence). If Forochel is (in some ways) based on our own far north it might have similar fauna. I would imagine that something along the lines of a polar bear (under a dark influence to direct it) if it wandered into a place like Bree could cause massive consternation and destruction (especially when you consider that ME animals while more diminutive thatn thier First age cousins are sill usally describes as bein much bigger than the one's we are used to so a ME polar bear might likey be along the lines of a cave bear or even a quoquogaq (an enormous polar bear like creature of Inuit legend)) Forochel might also have big nasty Aurochses (if there were wild Kine in Rhun there might have been wild oxen elswhere and possibly even its own, shaggy Oliphaunts. Any of there under a malicios taint would strike fear into ANY villager

This discussion now belongs in RPG. Better to stick with the "facts" as actually stated or implied (or not) by Tolkien...

I remain intrigued by Inziladun's question. It is very interesting to consider Aragorn's words at the Council of Elrond in terms of the history of plotting LotR. Consider for a moment some of these situations found in HoME (and possibly UT, although that I haven't that at hand at the moment).

In some of the earlier drafts of LotR, when Aragorn was still the hobbit Trotter, a town was mentioned on the Greenway which would have been within a day's march of Bree (give or take I think), called Andrath (earlier name, Amrath). It was supposed to run between the Barrow Downs and the south Downs. It is listed on Fontad's map of Middle earth (for which information I thank Estelyn, as my Fonstad also is not at hand) ; it was not named on the 1943 map, but Christopher Tolkien's note describes it.

In the early draft according to HoMe 7, Gandalf reports the events with the Chief Rider.

One of Tolkien's narrative outlines, entitled "New Plot" presents the events thusly:

This shows that Amrath was likely a day's march of Bree.

As CT makes clear, this section of LotR (concerning Ham Bolger) went through several narrative outlines and the Council of Elrond went through five versions, the fourth of which ends with Aragorn's speech, then incompletely developed.

While Ham Bolger and Andrath are excised from the fifth version, it is intriguing to imagine that Andrath still existed in Tolkien's mind and formed a backdrop to the revision of Aragorn's speech.

Who or what Aragorn refers to in the subsequent paragraphs--the dark things [that] come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods--he is elaborating on his initial statement that he hunted "servants of the Enemy."

I'm inclined to interpret Aragorn's comment as the Instaneous present, meaning at the time Aragorn speaks, rather than the Timeless present. In fact, I might even say that Aragron's speech partakes of a performative declaration, which, according to Quirk and Greenbaum's A University Grammar of English, is expressed in the simple present Instaneous. But you don't have to take my word for it; I'm just the resident pedant here. ;)

Forgive me for trying to out-pedant the resident pedant, but - if Aragorn's words are supposed to be in the Instantaneous Present, they can't refer to Black Riders, as these were nowhere near Bree and/or Andrath/Amrath at the time of his speaking (being unhorsed and uncloaked after the Incident at Bruinen Ford, and their present whereabouts unknown). And if he was using the Timeless Present, he can't be referring to Black Riders either, as they weren't habitually to be found within a day's march of Bree. (Also, there's the bit about "...if he [=the 'one fat man', Butterbur] were not guarded ceaselessly", which implies a constant threat.)
So I take it you're suggesting that Andrath/Amrath wasn't just a ruined town chosen by the Nazgûl as a convenient basis camp, but maybe a permanent settlement populated by 'servants of the Enemy' (possibly refugees from Angmar or remnants of the Witch-King's army who settled there after the wars?) - kind of a 'home away from home' for the Nazgûl, where the Witch-King could count on the support of his former followers or their descendants? Now that's a possibility - and it would make Aragorn's speech one of those instances where an idea from the early drafts is preserved in the final narrative with its original context either changed beyond recognition or lost altogether in the revision, but still implied if not explicitly mentioned. If so, good point!

Interesting stuff!

Andrath - is it known to be/have been an actual settlement rather than some sort of location/geographical feature?

I always had the vague impression that it was the name of the defile or pass between the Barrow Downs and South Downs (from UT), but would be delighted to be proved wrong!

As to the name; 'rath' is path, way or road, right? Like Rath Dinen. What does the 'And' mean (or the 'Am' in the alternative Amrath)? The Greek andros to make 'man-path' or 'Men's Road' would fit nicely I think but not sure JRRT used much Greek.

Meanwhile on Mewlips - they seem to me to be Marsh-dwellers from the illustrations and talk of bogs in the poem, so Midgewater is my suspect Mewlip-den. Though conceivably Swanfleet or even the Gladden Fields? If so, are the Mewlips really Hobbit folk-memories of Gollum?? :p

Somewhere after leaving Bree Aragorn mentions 'spies' more formidable than Bill Ferny and that the beasts and bird can't be trusted iirc.

'Freeze his heart' might well be metaphorical. For example a band of raiding goblins, trolls or even brigands could happily commit such atrocities upon the peaceful folk of Bree such that Butterbur's heart would be 'frozen' by their (non-supernatural) savagery. What think ye?

I do like the spotting of 'dark things in the woods' - could be an owl or a deer or a wolf or.... a....a...who knows?

Maybe Aragorn & co. have the authority to prevent the wights wandering from the Downs, in the same way that A has authority to use the Palantir, due to the Dunedain nature of the barrows at least (OK a whole different kettle of fissssshhh !). The dark shapes being wights or allied spirits transgressing the 'bounds' put about their land in the absence of the Rangers. (He says, shamelessly making stuff up ;)).

In any case the reference seems to be something resembling a more or less permanent threat to Bree, so not the Black Riders.

Probably parsing things too much here, but I suppose it could be noteworthy that Butterbur sees those dark figures in the woods once the Rangers leave the area (to help out Aragorn). Still hard to say whether there is something real there, or just the inflamed superstitions given all the incidents of the preceding period...

Always interesting to meet another pedant! :D

The relevant point--for me--about Aragorn's words is that they are performative. He is addressing his rival Boromir and providing a correction to Boromir's rather arrogant claims for Gondor's singular status as sole protector of the realm. He is speaking of his generations of heirs of Valandil. It is heightened speech.

I was responding to Legate's comment above

and wished to point out that there was a Nazgul camp close to Bree in the earlier drafts. It's particulars we don't know (unless they are given in UT, which I don't have here to check). But Tolkien did.

Here's a thought. The Watcher, I believe, came to its pool by
traveling up the Sirannon. Why not have similar or some other
krakenish creaures or , say,walking catfish on steroids
swimming from the ocean up the Brandywine? If Breelanders fish
go boating on the Brandywine they might have been terrorized by such.

And it could explain the disappearance of Bilbo's parents. A watching
hobbit from a distance sees Bungo go into the river and then what
looks like a hand or arm grasp Belladonna Took and pull her in.
Hmmm. ;)

You'd think the sharp-eyed Hobbits would have noted the presence of such creatures, if they were in the area. At least, like the 'tree man' seen by Sam's cousin, they'd have made their way into local rumours and fireside tales.
Also, there was a passing reference in UT of the Brandywine having 'elvish' qualities, which would seem to give the river an anti-evil aura. No idea if T. stuck to that idea though.
And Bilbo's parents didn't drown, did they? That was Frodo's parents Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck.

Yep! You're correct. :o

But evil water creatures could explain a subconscious
hobbit fear of water, eh?

I guess that would do it. Especially if they're amphibious and capable of 'marching' to Bree. ;)

As a good narrator, Tolkien usually tells us only a part of the things he "knows" about Middle Earth. It might be that Aragorn's words initially referred to Andrath, but as that part of the story was abandoned, the most suitable explanation of the dwellings of

seems to be Barrow Downs. When he says:

'or' doesn't need to mean 'and', so the latter can be ruffians. It is also possible that Wights can travel (as they once came to Downs) and that, on the other hand, rangers can withstand their 'chill' and keep them at bay. After all, Aragorn was able to withstand even the terror of five Nazgul in the night at Weathertop.

The only thing that I want to say is that there might be more small-scale evil or just wild things hiding in the emptiness around the Shire and Bree than the 4 hobbits encountered. This leaves it open to imagination and makes it inclusive.

I don't think it takes more than a few ruffians to freeze Butterbur's heart.

I don't know, he seemed pretty capable of dealing with the ones in Bree sent by Saruman.

ROTK The Scouring of the Shire

Notably, The Prancing Pony was still in business, unlike the inns in the Shire. Butturbur, and Bree in general, seem to have been more successful in resisting the ruffians.

But the ruffians were Saruman's method of just messing with the Shire, to get some revenge on Frodo et. al. He wouldn't have had much of an interest in Bree-beyond just causing more mayhem, but he wanted to destroy as much of the Shire as he could.

As for general threats, didn't The Fellowship take the (magical?) wolves who attacked them to be at first an "ordinary" wolfpack, implying that such attacks in The Wild were not unknown or unexpected? That and roving orc bands, perhaps riding on wolves, could be some of the dangers---sort of the way Medieval people (and Grimm's Fairy Tales) saw the forests and lands outside settled areas.

True enough. I was mainly defending Butturbur from charges of cowardice in the manner Gandalf took issue with his being described as "stupid" by Frodo. ;)

I wouldn't think Orcs and Wargs to be the answer. While "white wolves" were not unknown in the area (the Shire having been invaded by them in the Fell Winter), they had apparently not been seen for many years leading up to the War of the Ring.
And if Orcs were in Eriador, surely that would have merited specific mention by someone, if not Aragorn.

I sincerely doubt the threat Aragorn had mentioned referred to the Barrow Wights. While it is entirely unclear to what lengths Barrow Wights could travel or otherwise leave their "Barrow", one does seem to leave to ensnare Frodo & Co, they require the safety of their barrows for continual existence. This implies that they can't or wouldn't leave their barrows for any length of time. Especially as they cannot survive the daylight in which they'd simply wither away. So to travel to Bree & back would seem far too unlikely for them IF they could even travel.

You inferred that they could travel because hey, they got down to the downs somehow right..... Except the Barrow Wights only appeared in the downs directly by the Witch King of Angmar's magic. The Witch King is responsible for putting the Barrow Wight's spirits there. So they didn't necessarily have to travel anywhere. While they certainly seem capable of "freezing" Butterbur's heart..... I definitely have a hard time seeing them "sack" a whole town.

So I have a hard time thinking Aragorn meant the Barrow Wights as a day's march from Bree.